Month: July 2020 Page 1 of 2

Interview and Photographs by Courtney Thomas, Jr.

Interview conducted by Courtney Thomas, Jr., on Dec. 2, 2018.

Revised Transcript by Daniel Gorman Jr. and Courtney Thomas, Jr., Feb. 2020.

Please be aware that the recording contains racial epithets, which we have not written out fully in the transcript.

Speaker Codes:
KM: Minister Kenneth Muhammad.
SM: Saeed Muhammad.
CT: Courtney Thomas, Jr.

START OF RECORDING

CT: So yes, it is December the 2^nd, 2018, 2:11 [14:11 EST]. I’m with Rochester’s representative of the Nation of Islam, Minister Kenneth Muhammad, and his son, Saeed Muhammad, and — you dive right into it. So the first question I want to just ask is, how would you describe just the Nation of Islam, and your belief in general, in just one word?

KM: I would say in one word, love. We love our people.

CT: That’s it. I wanted to start with that question because it’s usually the hardest question to really, like, think about —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And it goes into what we were talking about earlier —

KM: Right.

CT: Misconceptions, ’cause I doubt anybody outside of the Nation would really have said that.

KM: Right.

CT: So I really wanted to start with that, ’cause that’s how I’m gonna open up.

KM: Right.

CT: Just love.

KM: Yes, sir.

CT: Period. And then, really, start with, what, uh, the Muhammad Study Group is doing, what you guys are. Uh, going into that, pretty much, would you consider your belief a religion? Would you call the [Muhammad] Study Group a religious organization?

KM: Well, you know, I’ll say it like the Holy Quran says, you know, that Allah set up his nature as a religion, so Islam is not a religion. Islam is a system by which Allah established his nature within every creature. Every creature has an identity, but to get to that identity, there’s steps. So the religion, or the religious side of Islam, is there, but once we have established the identity, we can let that religion stuff go.

CT: Right.

KM: [We] no longer need it no more. Some people just hold religion as a cover —

CT: Right.

KM: But in Islam — Islam is our nature.

CT: In coming and visiting you guys, I felt like there was a difference —

KM: Yes, sir.

CT: And that’s why I asked that question. It’s very easy to say, oh, this is a religious organization, and draw your own concepts and connotations —

KM: Right.

CT: With whatever religion truly means, —

KM: Right.

CT: So I definitely want to get into that. Um, well, in asking that question, what is the Muhammad Study Group?

KM: Well, the Muhammad Study Group is a close-knit membership of registered individuals who have made a decision to be a part of the Nation of Islam — it is an entity, a nation is there, [unclear].

CT: Right.

KM: So that’s what Muhammad Study Group is. We come and we study as a group of individuals, until we blossom into what is called a Mosque —

CT: Hmm.

KM: Right? Then we become Mohammad Mosque. So it’s stages, after stages — 

CT: Right.

KM: And then eventually we are a Nation. That’s the ultimate goal, is a nation. But we have to start somewhere.

CT: Right.

KM: So we start by studying Islam, or the nature of God.

CT: The nature of God. And that’s what Islam is.

KM: Yes.

CT: The nature of God.

KM: It’s the nature of God!

CT: That’s — so, I was gonna say, between the Muhammad Study Group and the Nation of Islam —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: So there are different stages, and the Muhammad Study Group is definitely under that umbrella of the Nation —

KM: Affiliated.

CT: It’s affiliated.

KM: It’s an affiliation.

CT: So I was gonna say, can you — is there — do they differ in any way? Of, like, the way that it operates, or any of the beliefs or ideas, or is it —

KM: No.

CT: Are they one and the same?

KM: One and the same.

CT: That’s good to know.

KM: Yes.

CT: That’s something to clarify.

KM: Yes.

CT: ’Cause, um, yeah — I think that, from the beginning, kind of, when I first got involved with you guys, when I first, like, showed up over the summertime —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: It was definitely kind of some dissonance between what was thought to be just the Study Group who kind of took these teachings from the Nation, but now it’s really clear that it’s underneath the Nation.

KM: Right.

CT: The one and the same.

KM: Right.

CT: Right, that’s good to know. Um, are there any sacred texts — I know the Quran is something that’s huge, but are there any other texts or documents that are just believed, like, really taught from, that are considered sacred within —

KM: Yes.

CT: The Muhammad Study Group?

KM: Yes, yes, it’s Supreme Wisdom, lessons given by our founder, Master Fard Muhammad.

CT: Hmm.

KM: He brought those lessons himself. So those are considered sacred, and there are several groups of lessons that Master Fard Muhammad wrote himself —

CT: Mhmm.

KM: That the Nation of Islam and the Muhammad Study Group, we study from, in addition to the sacred text — the Holy Bible, the Holy Quran, and the books by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan. So it’s called Supreme Wisdom.

CT: Supreme Wisdom.

KM: Yes.

CT: I’ll have to check that out for sure—

KM: It’s very scared. Very sacred! You can find it online.

CT: Alright.

KM: But if you want the [real] Supreme Wisdom? You got to come to Muhammad Study Group.  [laughs]

CT: That’s real! [laughs]

KM: Got to come to the Muhammad Study Group.

CT: That’s real. Um, what is the most important concept in what you’re studying, in your belief?

KM: Mm. That’s a good question, Brother. That’s a real good question. I would answer it as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught, believed, and practiced. We believe that Allah — that God — appeared in the person of Master Fard Muhammad. We don’t believe that God is just Spirit only. We believe that God is a man.

CT: Do you believe that every member who truly decides to, like, take this journey to heart, is a God themselves, or do they have God inside of them?

KM: They have God inside of them, and they have the potential to be one with God. As Jesus said, right, “When you see me, you see the father.”

CT: Right.

KM: And he also said, as it had been written in the scriptures, that “Ye” — meaning you — “are all gods, but children of the most high Gods.” That’s what the most Honorable Elijah Muhammad teach and believe. Many people say, well, that’s not true. God cannot be a human, cannot be a man. Well, that goes against the teachings of the prophets.

CT: Hmm.

KM: David believed that God was a human being.

CT: Right.

KM: Right? Solomon believed that God was a [human being]. Moses said, look, uh, a man is coming that is like unto me, right? And then he even said to Aaron, you will be my spokesman, but I’ll be like a god to Pharaoh.

CT: Right.

KM: I think I read it somewhere in Deuteronomy, that he said that, but not the Moses of 4,000 years ago, but the one who would be like him, that would come forth a thousand years later —

CT: Hmm.

KM: I would just answer to that, then.

CT: I was — my follow-up question, so I just wanted to get into that.

KM: Yes, sir.

CT: Uh, um, I was gonna say, so continuing just about the Muhammad Study Group and how you guys operate, uh, are there any family traditions that are, like, really important —

KM: Oh, yes, yes.

CT: To the Study Group.

KM: Yes.

CT: Because I know it goes — that it’s not just studying —

KM: Family is very [unclear].

CT: But it’s actually something that you embrace within your life.

KM: Yes, yes.

CT: It’s a cultural thing, as well. So are there family traditions? Um, and I guess to kind of wrap another question into that, uh, specifically, talking about, when it comes to the family, [do] the teachings outline anything regarding the role of women and the role that they play within the studies?

KM: Do you want to answer that?

SM: No, you can go ahead.

KM: You see, I thought of him because he came up in Islam. Um, you know, he was born into the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and the family is very sacred in the Nation, very dear to the Honorable Louis Farrakhan, because family is the cornerstone of community, and without family, you don’t have no community, and without community, you don’t have no Nation. So family is the foundation to the Nation, so whenever we come in the company of one another, you know, our tradition is that we, uh, have family time that we take time to spend with our — if you’re married, with your wife, with your children, and you balance that —

CT: Yeah.

KM: With your day-to-day operation. But the family is the cornerstone of the Nation of Islam, and the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Minister Farrakhan are an example of that. So family is very sacred in the Nation, and out of that role, the woman plays a very, very critical role.

SM: Mhmm.

KT: Without her, you know, there is no nurturing of the children. There is no taking care of the husband.

CT: Hmm.

KT: There is no modeling for the children, because the woman is the really the true model for the children, right? She teaches the child; she is the first teacher; she is the first nurse. So her establishment and her role in family, in the Nation of Islam, is just as equal to the role of the husband. There’s a balance, right? Her job is to bring up the children, with the idea as the seed to blossom and grow children, that takes the belief, takes the practice to a whole ’nother level.

CT: Right.

KT: You see that in the example of the children of the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan. You see his sons, you see his daughters. You see that in the example of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s children. You see that in the example of my son. You see that in the example of all of the children that you see —

CT: Yeah.

KM: When they come, and how they embrace Islam as a nucleus, because without that identity, how could you be successful?

CT: Right.

KM: Without proper roots.

CT: That’s true. Yeah, even coming in here just now —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Seeing the families —

KM: Yes, yes.

CT: The smiles and the children definitely —

KM: It’s family!

CT: The children around, and they know one another. It seems like it’s very close-knit. So —

KM: Yes, yes. It’s not so that we don’t share that with our community.

CT: Mm.

KM: You know, that’s why we, we — that may put us into the next question, of what the role of Muhammad Study Group is, is it’s just that, is not to just keep it enclosed, where it is just among us, but it’s to also share the — I don’t like the word tradition, um, but it’s to share our way, our way of life, that has always been among black people. But unfortunately, it was lost —

SM: Right.

KM: During a time that our mothers and fathers were brought here as chattel slaves. The family was broken up. So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s purpose today and aim is to re-establish family.

CT: Family.

KM: Right? Across, uh, ideology, you know. So we have our Christian family. They are our brothers and sisters, right?

SM: Mhmm!

KM: You’ve seen me there last night!

CT: Yeah!

KM: And we share bread together.

CT: Broke bread. You did.

KM: We may have, you know, religious differences, but we don’t exploit that to the point that we can’t be brothers and sisters to one another —

CT: Right.

KM: You know, because that’s what we have been taught, you know. Uh, we have families where we come together based on that bond — that we didn’t come from the same mother; we didn’t come from the same father; but the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad become the access by which we now start rotating as brothers and sisters, and that’s based on us giving our word.

CT: Right.

KM: Right? And that’s what bonds us together, even though we don’t have the same mother and the same father, but we do, because the Honorable Elijah Muhammad becomes the spiritual mother, — 

CT: Right.

KM: You know, from the womb — 

CT: Mmm.

KM: That he produces, which is called Muhammad Study Group, or Muhammad’s Mosque.

CT: Right.

KM: We all come out of that same experience, right?

CT: Right.

KM: And we grow into our own — uh, establish our own identity within that structure —

CT: Right.

KM: Right, so we all have our own families, but at the root of our families —

SM: Mhmm.

KM: Is the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. That bonds us together.

CT: Right.

KM: That ropes us in together, but not to the point where we exclude our broader community —

CT: Right.

KM: Which is our people, ’cause we love our people.

CT: Love.

[Laughter; unclear remarks by KM and SM]

CT: It’s that one word. I’m going to keep honing on, on that. Like, love — love is the way. Um, I was gonna say, so, kind of, last, like, two questions on tradition, uh, pretty much: When it comes to, I guess, actual services, like the Sunday service —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Um, I know there is definitely — it’s organized fashion.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: There’s typically a leader.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: I know, like, in the church, they have worship leaders, and a different rabbi leads the service in the Jewish community, and whatnot. So here, what role does the leader play in the service, and let alone, are there specific — I know the men and women sit on different sides —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Um, are there other specific customs within the services, and the reasons for those?

SM: Hmm.

[Unclear remarks by CT]

KM: Well, I would say there is no other than the structure that you see when you come to the Nation of Islam meetings at Muhammad Study Group or Muhammad’s Mosque, and always the tradition is that the minister, who is the representative, uh, leads the tradition, just as much as you would see in a church setting, which is led by, you know, a clergy, reverend, pastor, —

CT: Right.

KM: Bishop, right? Uh, it’s the same setting, uh, you know, just slightly different. You won’t see no singing [CT laughs] at Muhammad Study Group. Um, our, our focus is on, uh, teaching [unclear], right? The scripture says, how can they know, except they have a teacher? Some translations say preacher. Well, preacher and teacher is — some similar, but we prefer to use the word teacher, because we need to be taught.

SM: Mhmm.

KM: We need to be re-educated, retrained, —

CT: Right.

KM: Right? And so that’s my job, and those who have established themselves as, uh, helpers to the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan and myself, our job is to lead the worship by teaching and imparting the Word from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan.

CT: Yeah. Okay.

KM: I don’t know if that answers your question.

CT: No, it definitely answers my question, especially within your role. And then — and — just curious about the, the customs of — why do men and women sit on different sides [during service]? Um…

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And, I guess, also, with the customs, I saw that you guys were selling different things outside.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: I always wanted — I was always curious about the significance of, like, the bean pies.

KM: Mmm!

CT: ’Cause I LOVE bean pies.

[Laughter]

CT: But I — I don’t like to do things without, without really knowing why —

KM: Right.

CT: So I’ve always wanted to know, kind of just those small customs, like, how this thing’s being sold after church, and creates the community orients for sure, but then, within the different services — just kind of those purposes —

KM: Right.

CT: If you can touch on those.

KM: Well, uh, remember the comments that you have stated, and it was somewhat surprising to me, too, when I first came to a meeting. Um, I was raised in the church, you know.

CT: Mhmm.

KM: I didn’t stay long. But I can remember as a little boy, you know, that we sat wherever we wanted to —

CT: Right.

KM: You know? I can remember vaguely being at church with my mother, you know, sitting with my mother. [laughs]

CT: Right.

KM: So, when I came to the meeting, I was like, I got to sit over here? So I didn’t understand, —

CT: Right.

KM: But I never asked until, you know, years down the road, I started hearing, you know, “Brothers on this side, and sisters on this side, and it is because the black man has to be learned — has to be taught how to be a man, and if he’s intermingling with a woman, then how can he be…” You know what I mean? They started explaining it from the perspective that Master Fard Muhammad set up two classes —

CT: Hmm.

KM: Right? A class for the males, and a class for the females. Master Fard Muhammad knew the nature of the black man, and he knew the nature of a woman —

CT: Right.

KM: But we didn’t know our natures.

CT: I see.

KM: So here we are, intermingling with each other without a knowledge of our own nature.

CT: Right.

KM: And look what we [were] producing as a result of that.

CT: That’s true.

KM: So when you come in the Nation, Brother, now you are getting taught — I would say not out of arrogance — for the first time, your nature —

CT: Right.

KM: Which is different from your ancestors where we came from, which is a land mass. No, Master Fard Muhammad went one step deeper —

CT: Hmm.

KM: Because everything has a nature in creation, and if you don’t know that nature, then how can it function? How can you function properly? So we are taught in the FOI, the Fruit of Islam, the name given to the military training of the men, see, who is the property of submission — but we didn’t know that our nature and that we own this nature, because someone else has their name on us. Somebody else was claiming us, instead of us claiming ourselves.

CT: Right.

KM: So when you claim yourself, you know who you are as a man, right?

CT: Yeah.

KM: Then you gotta to learn how to take orders.

CT: Right.

KM: That’s military training! ’Cause the black man in North America has never been trained. Who’s trained us?

CT: No one.

KM: Not Pharaoh!

CT: Yeah.

KM: He trained us in his language.

CT: Yeah.

KM: Right? In the Babylonian language, rather than in the nature in which God created us. The same with the woman. This is why we have problems in relationships between black men and black women — ’cause we don’t know each other —

CT: Right.

KM: Other than being more romantically on the physical level, and maybe somewhat on the mental level, and, you know, sharing political views, but our nature?

CT: Yeah.

KM: We’re far from that, Brother. So the Nation set it up in such a way that, when you come in,  you’re being trained, from day one, when you walk into our structure.

CT: Learning your nature. That is —

KM: Learning your nature!

CT: That is deep.

KM: Yeah!

CT: I didn’t realize. ’Cause that’s — that hit me. That’s deep.

KM: ’Cause that’s critical, right?

CT: Yeah.

KM: And our nature, unfortunately, until this present time, has been manipulated, because we [striking table for emphasis] don’t know it, and when you have someone who know[s] your nature, he undermines the faith that we could have in ourselves, and [striking table for emphasis] he undermines the knowledge that we are functioning from, because it’s not sufficient! And once he know[s] you come back in — if you come back into the nature of yourself, you have the ability to master Self. So you can go to school and get a master’s degree, but have you truly mastered your own nature?

CT: That’s one of the teachings that I’ve truly picked up and pondered, studying [with] you guys. It’s, I’ve always heard you be consistent in that, and say the purpose is to get you back to your original nature. Correct me if I’m wrong —

KM: No, that’s important. That’s the truth.

CT: Because I want to make sure I get that right. Because that is something I have taken deeply to heart.

KM: That’s the purpose, Brother.

CM: I’ve heard you say, time after time, I’ve heard you read about it, and it’s been like, that’s the purpose, —

SM: Yeah.

KM: That’s it.

CT: Getting back to your true nature.

KM: That’s it.

CT: We’re not trying to convert you into something or turn you, just getting you back to your true nature.

KM: We can’t convert you to what you already are.

[CT and KM laugh]

CT: Exactly. That’s it, that’s it.

KM: Our job is to just, you know, expose you to the knowledge and the system, see, that’s the key. We have a system from God, —

CT: Mm.

KM: And he is successful in everything that he do, right? And so, in spite of the opposition to the Nation, we[’re] still here.

CT: Right.

KM: Right?

CT: Strong.

KM: After eighty-plus years, and we’re getting stronger!

CT: Yep, yes.

KM: Regardless of what people say, their views of the Nation of Islam, they have not been able to defeat what Master Fard Muhammad brought, because all we’re teaching our people is the nature of themselves.

CT: Right.

KM: And then, when you do that, you have to expose the one who has lied to us. You have to make the guilty made known. Without making him known, then you are still stuck!

CT: Right.

KM: And that’s many of our people. We’re still stuck, unfortunately, on stupid. No! Unfortunately.

CT: Yeah.

KM: But, after four hundred and sixty-plus years, if we don’t realize that this system — the system and the Man — is our open enemy, then we are just stupid.

CT: Yeah. This is not a system created for us, that’s true.

KM: It’s not!

CT: But as you said, we have our own system, the system from God.

KM: It’s opposed to who you really are.

CT: That’s true.

KM: You — I mean, you’re in the University [of Rochester].

CT: I know it.

KM: You’re reminded every day of white supremacy. Just look around —

CT: That’s true [best guess].

KM: The images. You don’t see any black faces up in there —

CT: Yeah, so true.

KM: Not a righteous black face! [laughs]

CT: Yeah, that’s so true.

KM: The images reflect their thinking, so when we’re among them, we have to assimilate. But when you assimilate, you lose something!

CT: Mm.

KM: You got to give up something, or that becomes your ass in the white man’s world. 

CT: [laughs] Yeah.

KM: That’s truth, Brother.

CT: That is true. So, continuing, we got — definitely touch[ed] bases on the purpose, which I’m very glad we were able to clarify. Um, as far as rituals, does the Muhammad Study Group and the Nation of Islam follow, kind of, —

KM: No.

CT: The same rituals as —

KM: No, we don’t follow no rituals, Brother.

CT: So, not like the Five Pillars of Islam?

KM: Those are not rituals.

CT: Okay. Well, not rituals, but — um, I don’t know what word I’m trying to say. For, well, I should say, touch on the Five Pillars. Is that something that’s very integral?

KM: Yes.

CT: Just wanted to get that clear. So —

KM: Absolutely.

CT: And then — “rituals” is the wrong word. I should say — [pauses]

KM: Principles.

CT: Principles.

CT and KM simultaneously: Yes.

[SM laughs]

CT: And also, different seasons, like Ramadan, for example.

KM: Yes.

CT: Okay. Different — I just wanted to make sure. So if you had to — what is, I guess, the most important day or season, or, just kind of, act within, kind of — for example, one of the things that I really want to do is, I really want to go to Mecca. I want to take the hajj. I, I want to do that. And that’s just for me, personally, probably because I love to travel, but also I learn things, and I experience things kinesthetically. So, for me, that’s, like, very important to me.

KM: Mm.

CT: Um, what would you say the most important principle —

[laughter]

CT: What’d you say? [laughs]

[more laughter]

KM: All of the principles of Islam are important. Those principles are there to help us to grow to back into ourselves. Prayer — critical. Fasting — critical. Charity, right?

CT: Right.

KM: ’Cause all of these things helps us to check the nature of ourselves —

SM: Hmm.

KM: Right? So, without those principles, you can’t become yourself.

CT: Yeah.

KM: So the five principles in the Nation of Islam, and in Islam traditionally, is very critical. Right? So going to Mecca is a ritual. It’s a ritual.

CT: Okay.

KM: It’s a ritual. But it’s said that Muslims should make that journey once in their lifetime, but I say to you, Brother, and Minister Farrakhan said to us, the true journey to Mecca is from sperm to God. ’Cause that’s a journey. That’s a pilgrimage. So, when we get to Mecca, what do we do in Mecca? We say, “Oh Allah, here I am —”

CT: Right.

KM: “In your august presence —” Well, what do you mean? A building? Brick and mortar? Is the presence of God, Minister Farrakhan said, is really there? No, the presence of God is in you, —

CT: Mhmm.

KM: And that’s the journey, to get back to the God in you.

SM: Mmm.

KM: The ritual is just an indication. So when you get to Mecca, have you reached that destination? Ask the Muslim world, have they reached their destination? Is the presence of God in their life in the Muslim world? Well, if it was, they wouldn’t get on a plane, as the Minister taught us, and go to Europe and go to North America, and take off the holy garments, —

CT: Hmm.

KM: And act other than themselves. But [striking table for emphasis] Master Fard Muhammad left Mecca. Eh? He left Mecca and came to North America and did not take off the holy garments. He said he would not fall victim to this system, and he didn’t fall victim. In fact, he came to uplift us in this corrupt system.

CT: Right.

KM: So the Bible talks about putting on the — what? The incorruptible!

[SM and CT murmur]

KM: Man, this is something here, man.

[laughter]

KM: I don’t know where I’m going with this one.

SM: Man, I’m kind of fired up on that one.

KM: Right?

CT: [laughs] Now, this is good.

KM: Because he came, —

CT: Right.

KM: Right to black bottom Detroit!

SM: Go on [best guess], man.

KM: And he found us in a corrupt state.

CT: Right.

KM: But he began to purify us of the dross of colonialism, —

SM: Mmm.

KM: The dross of white supremacy, —

CT: Right.

KM: The dross of thinking like a n—–.

[SM laughs]

KM: So now, we started entertaining the language of, I’m a black man.

SM: Come on, man.

KM: See? Before Master Fard Muhammad, we [weren’t] really talking like that.

CT: Mmm.

KM: We know that Noble Drew Ali did a wonderful work. Marcus Garvey did a wonderful work. But when Master Fard Muhammad came, he came to the worst version [best guess]. Man. And he went to work. And so Elijah Muhammad said, when Master Fard Muhammad found him, he was so far down in the mud, all you could see was his eyeballs, and then he said Master Fard Muhammad cleaned him up and took him off the junk pile, to put him back on top of the junk pile —

CT: Hmm.

KM: Meaning, you can’t get away from your people! Even though your life has been made better, what, what does it mean if you can’t go back and help your brothers and your sisters?

CT: Right.

KM: God always provides a way for us. He don’t get away from us. If he takes something away, he’s always bringing it back.

CT: Right. Whew! You got me fired up inside. All right.

KM: Man, all praise due to Allah. I’m getting fired up.

CT: I love hearing you —

KM: I don’t know where it comes from, son.

CT: I love hearing you explain things, I’m not gonna lie. I love hearing you explain things. It’s deep, understanding.

KM: And it’s real, Brother.

CT: It is.

KM: This is, this is our, our discourse of our history.

CT: Mhmm.

KM: And I thank Allah, you know, for our minister today who spoke. I wish you would have been here earlier. Brother Minister Carlos was the keynote speaker.

CT: Ah.

KM: The archivist! And he was just sharing the history of the Nation. That’s why I was like, ah, man, I wish Brother [CJ] would have been [here], because he gave, he gave so much in his message today that a lot of this could have been fulfilled just by hearing him today.

SM and CT: Mmm.

KM: And it was beautiful.

CT: Ah.

KM: He went into the history of the Nation. He went into the history of Minister Farrakhan, right? A lot of people think they know the Minister — you — there’s a lot of history behind Honorable Louis Farrakhan that people just don’t know.

CT: Yeah.

KM: Yeah.

CT: Well, yeah, segue-waying into the the community. You definitely said, without the community, there is no Nation.

KM: There is no Nation.

CT: And the community is definitely — is just instrumental, and you guys in the community — I just wanted to just touch upon — since the MSG has been here, what have you guys done in the community, what are you guys doing now, and what are you hope to do in the community in the future?

SM: Yeah.

KM: We want to continue to go after as many of our people as we can.

SM: Right.

CT: Mmm.

KM: Our job is to spread the Gospel, the love, —

CT: Yeah.

KM: To our people that will spread to us from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Minister Farrakhan. And I would say, since my time here at MSG, we have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of people, —

CT: Huh.

KM: Who have come to the teachings for their various reasons, right?

CT: Yeah.

KM: But they, as Brother Carlos said today, they can’t say that they didn’t get something, —

CT: Right.

KM: Whether they stayed or not. Along their way, we handed them something that they can still use to this very day, —

CT: Right.

KM: And that is the knowledge of themselves! See, this is not for everybody, you know. The mosque is not for everybody.

CT: Mmm.

KM: You can be a part of the Nation of Islam, right? But those of us who put on these uniforms and put on that name Muhammad, we have taken on the assignment — 

CT: Hmm.

KM: Of Muhammad. See, Muhammad means one who is worthy of praise and has made a conscious decision to go to war with ourselves.

CT: Hmm.

KM: Many are called, right? But only a few are chosen — those who have chosen Him. And we are always conscious of the fact that we’re [tapping table] in that process of being chosen.

CT: Right. It’s deep.

KM: So our work is just to give our people the knowledge of themelves.

CT: Yeah.

KM: They can do the rest — teach a man, what, how to fish, and by providing him with what he needs, if I constantly have to feed him, then that’s what he expects.

SM: Right.

CT: Right.

KM: But if I teach him how to fish for himself, then he no longer needs me.

CT: Yeah.

KM: Right? It’s something like that, I believe.

CT: Yeah, he can feed himself! That’s exactly how it goes! Um, and —

KM: And, and I just want to add, see —

CT: Yeah.

KM: That was the work of Jesus. Some people say he gave out bread, he gave out fish. That’s a lack of understanding of the Scripture.

CT: Hmm.

KM: The fish, the bread, it was the principles that Jesus taught, and two of the principles which we call in Islam principles of faith in action, which is prayer and charity.

CT: Mmm.

KM: And, see, once you put your faith to an exchange, you get a product. Right?

CT: Yeah.

KM: When you multiply. You have those factors.

CT: Yeah.

KM: Then you put them together, you produce a product. So, in the — Jesus  — you know, it’s nice to say, “Oh, we’re going to get a soup line.” That’s nice! I’m not knocking that.

CT: Yeah.

KM: But if you keep doing that, then what are you doing? You’re handicapping people.

CT: Yeah.

KM: And that’s what Jesus was calling people away from. He said, “Pick up your bed —”

CT: Hmm.

KM: “And come and follow me,” eh? Not, “Stay in the bed” — “Pick up the bed.” Right? ’Cause there were those who were paralyzed —

CT: Right.

KM: And they couldn’t walk. They couldn’t talk. They couldn’t think, ’cause they were blind and deaf and dumb. But until they met the master teacher, they began to, what? — become disciples —

CT: Right.

KM: And do as the master was doing. See, Paul was the greatest indication of the message of Jesus because he internalized that message —

CT: Mhmm.

KM: And began to spread that message outside of the confines of Jerusalem. They didn’t know too much about Jesus outside of Jerusalem.

CT: Right.

KM: They knew about Jesus because Jesus had a disciple called Paul, who began to tell the world about Jesus and the message that Jesus had brought. That’s the same message of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and how Minister Farrakhan has taken that message outside of the the Nation of Islam, to the whole entire world.

CT: Yeah, yeah.

KM: So, to everybody who is somebody know[s] about Elijah Muhammad —

SM: Yeah.

CT: Yeah.

KM: You can’t say, “I don’t know nothing about Elijah.” I find that hard to believe.

[laughter]

KM: If you have heard of Minister Farrakhan.

SM: And just to add to what he was saying about the teaching of the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad — yesterday, when we [were] out in the community, my brother came to me and said, “Brother, Brother, it’s tough times right now.” We get out the Final Call newspaper, and he was trying to be funny. He said, “Brother, times are so tough, tell Elijah I need a dollar.” And I said, “Brother, if you go to page 19 in the Final Call newspaper, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s teachings, you will learn, if you are really understanding his teachings, how to multiply —”

KM: Mmm.

SM: “And get something for yourself.”

KM: That’s right.

SM: “But if he keeps continuing to feed you, and feed you, you ain’t gonna never get it; you gonna expect somebody to give you something all the time, man.”

CT: Right.

Unclear speaker [KM?]: Just to add to that, yeah —

SM: From real life experience —

KM: That’s right.

CT: Our experience [best guess].

SM: From yesterday, you know —

CT: Yeah.

SM: Because we play around with the teachings, but we can actually — if you apply those principles, ’cause what we’re learning are principles, —

KM: Hmm, hmm, —

SM: We will see —

KM: That’s right.

SM: Not only our life change, —

KM: Come on.

SM: But we understand how we can do something for ourselves.

CT: Right.

KM: Good point; that’s a very good point. Yes, yes.

CT: No, that’s huge, and that’s, that’s just a perfect segue-way into the second part of, like, community, which I wanted to ask you guys about from —

KM: Right.

CT: I know, in reading the Final Call and coming to some of the Monday sessions, we read different readings from the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan. He’s talking about black people being built up economically.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And socially.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And through the families, and with education, and of course teaching is one of the huge principles.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: So, when it comes to politics, and just in the community, and specifically Rochester, through the lens of, like, just the MSG looking into the community of Rochester, what do you guys think the city really needs when it comes to, like, jobs or education —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Or citizen/law enforcement relations —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Or socioeconomic disparities? What — what is that? What are those political factors that really go hand-in-hand with the mission that is being taught here?

Unclear speaker [KM?]: Mhmm.

KM: We need what every other ethnic group have, Brother, already in this city. You think about it. The Italians have their area.

CT: Hmm.

KM: Right?

CT: Yeah.

KM: Now the Asians.

CT: That’s, that’s true.

KM: Right? And even our Hispanic brothers are coming now, fastly approaching an identity and an area that they can call their own. Right? So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Minister Farrakhan, that’s our — that’s our message. How can we integrate when we don’t have nothing?

[murmur of agreement]

KM: How? You have to have something —

CT: Right.

KM: In order to be made equal, you got to have something. We don’t have nothing!

CT: That’s true.

KM: So we have to first come together, and that’s our message to our people in Rochester. Look, you and I can’t do nothing if we don’t unite.

SM: That’s right.

KM: And that, unfortunately, has been our downfall as a community. So, we do our best to be an example —

CT: Mmm.

KM: Of uniting across religious lines, because we understand our people. We understand that we [can be] very divisive when it comes to religion. If I’m a Christian, I’m a Christian. So when we find good Christians who believe in Jesus, who believe in their people, then we have a common cause, and we’re willing to work with them, and that’s what we have been doing for the last plus-thirty-something years. Some of those relationships have been sustainable.

CT: Mhmm.

KM: Some haven’t. It’s the nature of things, —

CT: Yeah.

KM: Right? So, we want to continue to do that, adding what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Minister Farrakhan [have] given us, that we gotta do something for ourselves.

SM: Yeah.

KM: We can’t keep depending on others to do for us what we can unite and do for ourselves. Unfortunately, we still have a mentality that we want jobs.

Unclear speaker [CT?]: Right.

KM: There are plenty [of] jobs in Rochester, but we don’t have them, —

SM: Mhmm.

KM: Unfortunately.

CT: Hmm, yeah.

KM: You’re talkin’ about photonics, but how many of our people are skilled in the area of photonics?

CT: Right.

KM: When you have a graduation rate such in Rochester that half of us are not even graduating!

CT: Yes. Not even one in two. It’s really crazy.

KM: So — But this is all by design, too.

CT: Hmm.

KM: That there was once inside the high schools shops, where brothers and sisters could take various courses, and didn’t need necessarily to go to college to get a degree in a certain area. Well, they took all of those programs out of the high schools.

CT: Hmm.

KM: Guess where they’re at? They’re all in the suburbs; they’re out in the rural areas. So now you’ve got white students [who’re] graduating from high school, going off in culinary, making $50,000 dollars a year. So some of the programs are being restored at East High School, if you probably know of some of the things that they’re trying to do there, but our people don’t have the education, Brother, that will help us to get into some, some of these highly skilled jobs. So our message to some of those brothers and sisters [is], what are you going to do?

SM: Mmm.

CT: Mmm.

KM: You going to rob? You going to steal? Because that’s what the data show us, that we’re out here robbing.

CT: Yeah.

KM: We’re out here stealing from each other, so we say to those brothers, mostly brothers, —

CT: Mmm.

KM: Who don’t have a high school diploma, that — come and get the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad before you find yourself in a trap —

SM: Mmm.

CT: Yeah.

KM: In a spider’s web.

CT: Right.

KM: Now you’re spinning and now you’ve been sucked into his prison-industrial complex system, —

CT: Yeah.

KM: Where white boys who don’t have a college degree [are] your overseers, —

CT: Yeah.

KM: And they’re making, starting out, $50,000, so they have careers off of the backs of our people. Ain’t that something?

CT: It is.

KM: They’re making, they’re creating — they have created an industry, while we can’t do the same. It’s because we don’t have the knowledge —

CT: Yeah.

KM: Of ourselves!

CT: Especially here in Rochester.

KM: Yeah!

CT: Eighteen prisons? [laughs]

KM: How many, Brother?

CT: I said eight — there’s eighteen prisons in the greater Rochester area.

KM: Wow. See, that’s what prison reform is — why it is so important to have —

CT: Mmm.

KM: [tapping for emphasis] Prison reform, and we have to push the argument —

SM: Yeah.

KM: Based on that data that you — could you send me that?

CT: I can definitely. We — at the U of R, we — one of the classes that I did —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Truly enjoy —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Is — it’s called “Prisons.”

KM: Yeah.

CT: And every Saturday, they have us go to a different prison, and we spend —

KM: Wow.

CT: Two, two-and-a-half hours just literally seeing the system, —

KM: Wow.

CT: Learning things like the fact of — the inmates there, —

KM: Wow.

CT: They make $0.25 cents an hour.

KM: An hour.

CT: And it starts at 15 [cents]. $0.25 cents is the maximum.

KM: That is —

CT: That is, that is slavery.

KM: It is.

CT: That, [laughing] that is legit slavery.

KM: Isn’t that something?

CT: Yeah.

KM: And see, that kind of data, Brother, is very important, you know, in helping the Nation, UCLM [United Christian Leadership Ministry of Western New York] — you know, we need that kind —

CT: Mmm.

KM: So it strengthens our argument, —

CT: Yeah.

KM: That, when folk are coming after us, based on their limited view of who we are and what we do and what we say, that helps to sustain our argument.

CT: Right.

KM: Look at the data! It — That doesn’t lie!

CT: It does not.

KM: It just recently came out — you know, Mayor Lovely Warren may not be pleased with it, but this is one of the worst cities for black people to live in.

CT: Yeah, I saw that in that index, too.

KM: Yeah!

CT: Um, I’m writing a paper on that, actually. I saw that in the Democrat & Chronicle. I’m writing a paper on that.

KM: Wonderful.

CT: I’m going to recreate the index.

KM: Yeah.

CT: So that’s going to be fun.

KM: Now, explain what that means.

CT: So, pretty much with the — so, in the D-and-C, they released a report that Rochester was the fortieth-worst city in the United States to live in for — if you are black.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Black people in Rochester, it’s the fortieth-worst city to live in. Um, and the way that they did that is they took all these different metrics where they said education — so, percent of people with a high school diploma —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And they compared it, whites and blacks, and then they look at the gap.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: White people graduate — at least 70% of white people here graduate —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: With a high school diploma. There’s only one in two here, where it’s, like, fifty percent, —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Really a little less than that. I think it just went up, like, fifty-one, or something like that.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: But still, every one in two. So there’s a twenty-percent/twenty-five-percent difference —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: In whites versus blacks.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And then they did that same thing for median income.

KM: Mhmm

CT: They did the same thing for health —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Who’s insured privately, who has health insurance.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: So they did education, socioeconomics, the health disparities, I think, — um, housing, I want to say. And they had all these different metrics, and then they pretty much compared blacks and whites, and looked at the gap in between.

KM: Mhmm.       

CT: And based on the size of the gap, that’s when they assigned different little weights, um, different weights, and they gave Rochester a score.

KM: Mhmm.       

CT: And then they compared the scores — they did the same thing across major cities, any cities with a population over 50,000 —

KM: Mmm.

CT: They did the same thing with cities across the nation, and then they ranked them based on that score.

KM: Hmmm.

CT: So what I’m going to do is pretty much recreate that, that metric, because, it’s to say things like — how we were talking about colleges.

KM: How we were talking about…?

CT: Like, how we were talking about earlier with colleges.

KM: Right. Got it, got it.

CT: And how, where you don’t necessarily have to have a college degree —

KM: Right.

CT: Just to do something to be successful. That’s less the case today —

KM: Right.

CT: But I want to look at — in education, they only looked at, like, high school diploma.

KM: Right.

CT: I want to look at high school diploma, college degree, —

KM: Right.

CT: Some type of technical degrees, —

KM: Right, [unclear], right.

CT: Because a lot, a lot of our people are going to vocational degrees.

KM: Right.

CT: So, I mean — and, and that’s [what it] showed.

KM: Right.

CT: Things like — and then, I do want to look at some systematic injustices.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: That’s something they admitted.

KM: Mhmm, mhmm.

CT: The rate at which white and blacks are being incarcerated, and for what?

KM: Mhmm, mhmm.

CT: Are we being incarcerated for actual, like, crimes —

KM: Mmm.

CT: Or are these felony misdemeanors that really aren’t felony misdemeanors, —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Or certain things — like, — okay. So-and-so smokes weed.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Or, [a] dude was on my property and I physically removed him, but now that’s, that’s assault.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: But that’s — it’s my property.

KM: Right.

CT: These smaller, individual cases of, like, what are these being — what we being arrested for, and sentencing terms —

KM: Right.

CT: And things like that. So I want to do the same process, look at the gaps and disparities —

KM: Right.

CT: But use some different metrics, metrics that are moreso related to us and tell the complete story of —

KM: Right.

CT: What is going on. Um…

KM: Got you. I like that.

CT: And I’m going to do that for Rochester, and the — hopefully they release the list of fifty cities.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: If I can get my hands on the data, I would like to do the fifty cities, and re- — rerank everything —

KM: Right.

CT: To see if — alright, if you look really look at the complete, comprehensive picture, would this ranking kind of change a little bit?

[background noise]

KM: He told me it’s almost time.

SM: Yeah.

CT: Oh, that’s fine.

KM: I’ll be [best guess] the time keeper. [laughs]

CT: No, it’s fine.

SM: Brother, we’re so busy. We have to go somewhere else after this.

CT: Okay. Uh, so yeah. That’s definitely —

KM: Yeah —

CT: I want to, later on —

KM: I would like to, uh, you know, definitely get, uh, my hands on that, Brother.

CT: Yeah, no, I can definitely share that.

KM: And get those eighteen prisons, too, —

CT: I can —

KM:In the greater Rochester area.

CT: The —

KM: You gotta send me that, man.

CT: The syllabus for — the syllabus for the prisons class! So literally what the whole class went through, —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: And all the readings and, kind of, data —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: That they assigned to all the students —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: I can get my hands on that, uh, ’cause one of my friends is actually taking the course, so he — I know he  —

KM: That’s wonderful. Yeah, we —

CT: Went through it —

KM: We need it to train [best guess].

CT: So I’ll get, I’ll get that to you. Um, —

KM: We need that. That’s good stuff.

CT: I was gonna say — so we will definitely wrap up really quickly. What I wanted to — I guess I’m gonna just, like, give some big, general questions, and then I’ll just end with kind of how I said your personal walk.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: Um, how is the Nation viewed? Regarding, like, how the Nation is viewed, I just had some points on how society views the Nation, pretty much how it is viewed in, like, Hollywood and the larger, uh, media, um, and just major misconceptions.

KM: Mhmm.

CT: So, I guess, talking about the larger media, how society views it, major misconceptions, —

KM: Mhmm.

CT: You can address that, and then what you would want to be corrected —

KM: Mmm.

CT: About these misconceptions. What would you want somebody to know?

KM: Well, you know, I’ll tell you, when we’re out among our people, there is no major misconception of the Nation. Our people understand, you know, who we are —

SM: Right.

KM: And what we do. You know, the misconception is created by those outside of our community, you know, which is the dominant view, and [what] I mean by that is that they control all the media —

CT: Mmm.

KM: Right? [laughs]

CT: Yeah.

KM: And they’re constantly rehearsing this story to indoctrinate our people. So it affects the progress that the Nation can make among our people.

CT: Hmm.

KM: So they create the confusion in our community. You know, our people know Minister Farrakhan.

SM: Hmm.

CT: When we’re out there, we always hear, “As-salamu alaykum.”

SM: That’s right.

KM: They ain’t a member —

SM: Yep.

KM: But they, they know how to say “As-salamu alaykum.” Why —

SM: Right.

KM: Is that?

CT: Yeah.

KM: Because they understand that, you know, we [are] Muslim!

CT: Yeah.

KM: And they understand that, at some point, they were Muslim, too. They may not be conscious that they [are] Muslim, right?

CT: Right.

KM: [laughs] Because they’re not practicing it.

CT: Right.

KM: But to say “As-salamu alaykum” means that there is a relationship with our community. So the dominant view? We don’t give a damn about what they, they really think about the Nation. We really don’t. It’s just like the prophets — the prophets didn’t focus on, “Oh, what [do] the chief leaders —”

SM: Mmm, mmm.

KM: “Think about me?” No, they kept, they kept on going —

CT: Right.

KM: Because their role and their mission was to get their people. You know, we’re here for our people, you know, and for those of us, those that [are] outside our community — if you don’t listen, then you’re going to get what the prophets were always been warning the people about, was coming. So it’s in America’s best interest, it’s in any ethnic group’s best interest just to leave us alone.

CT: Mhmm. Right.

KM: We’re not harming you. You don’t see us going around — you don’t hear [any] reports that the Nation of Islam just assaulted an old lady walking down the street, the Nation of Islam just  assaulted a white youth who is standing on the corner. No. Hell, that’s the opposite — you hear  [about] them assaulting us, verbally and — even, some of them will try to come and barge their way into our meetings.

CT: Yeah.

KM: So it’s their view that they have to change, of how they see us.

CT: Hmm.

KM: And unfortunately, the lens of white supremacy won’t allow white people and those whose views have been affected by the poison of white people — and some of us, unfortunately, as black people have been poisoned — 

SM: Mhmm.

KM: By the dominant view, which is coming from the slave master. So naturally there [were] some slaves on the plantation who could relate, and those are the ones that Malcolm said, those were the field N—–s.

CT: Hmm.

KM: They understood that, when, uh, the house was on fire, the house N—- would say, “[unclear], the house is on fire.” Because the house N—- could relate to the dominant view of the slave master, but the field N—-, he would say, “Whose house is on fire?”

SM: Mmm.

CT: Hmm.

KM: “I ain’t going — I’m not fetching a pail, a bucket of water.”

CT: Yeah.

KM: “Let it burn!” So the — [laughs] the black men in the mud, they are like, man, my brothers! And when they see us in the street?

SM: Mad [unclear].

KM: Them the brothers right there.

SM: Mmm.

KM: Like, that’s the language.

SM: That’s the language.

KM: So they — even though they may not be able to defend us, — 

SM: Right, right.

KM: Because they don’t have the knowledge of themselves, they know that we are nothing but a good group of people that means well, and we’re here to help our community.

CT: Right.

KM: So the dominant view, that has always been the challenge of the righteous.

CT: Hmm.

KM: But a day is coming where we will have the dominant view.

SM [best guess]: Yeah.

KM: But we’re not going to do to white folk what they did to us. No, our aim and our purpose is freedom, justice, and equality, regardless to your class, regardless to your covenant. We’re not here to do nothing to you —

CT: Right.

KM: But ask you to get out of our way, and allow us to teach Islam —

CT: Yeah.

KM: Without hindrances. And if white folk would do that, then we can help them to make America great again.

CT: [laughs] Hey… And just to, I guess, wrap up, I’m going to just sum up all the questions I have for you, personally, kind of into one. Um, I wanted to just touch upon how you really become — you just came to learn about the Nation, and Brother Saeed, this is for you, as well. Just — I know you grew up in it, and you were telling me the story about when you were 18. So, if each of you could just talk about how you just came to learn about the Nation, um, the number of years that you’ve been a part of the Nation, and, really, what drew you and kept you faithful. That’s the — like, once you really learned the teachings, what truly kept you faithful? Um, and then I’ll have one last question after you guys answer those.

KM: Hmm. Well, for me, uh, — and it’s, uh, — it’s always been, like, like a mystery to me, ’cause I was — I had nobody [with] dealings with religion, you know, other than when I was a little boy, and I’d say that I barely went to church, you know. So, for me, it was, it was strange, Brother, you know. It was strange. Um — but I know I can recall a longing in me, a yearning, but I could never decode it.

CT: Hmm.

KM: Like, what is this longing? What is this yearning? ’Cause I would fulfill it by smoking weed, drinking, partying, right? So I was missing the calling —

SM: Mmm.

KM: ’Cause I didn’t understand it! Until a great friend of mine, who had just prior to me coming to the Nation, he had a brush with the Five-Percent Nation. He was a good, close friend to me, and he asked me one day, “Man, what [do] you know about yourself?”

CT: Hmm.

KM: “What [do] you mean?” “I mean, what have you been smoking?”

[laughter]

KM: You know what I mean?

SM: Mmm.

KM: “[What do] you mean, man?”

CT: Yeah.

KM: You know — [I was] amazed. I mean, we’re boys! And he said, “No, man, I’m serious. You know who you are?” I started telling him, “Yeah, I know who I am.” “Well, who are you? Where [are] you from?” “My people [are] from Florida.” Right?

[laughter]

KM: “No, no, I’m not talking [about] that.” He said, “You don’t know yourself.” And that was the first time that I ever stopped and thought about what somebody said, ’cause I didn’t care — I didn’t give a damn what you said. You know what I mean? ’Cause it didn’t mean — ’cause that’s how it is in the street, when you come up in the street. Look here, ’cause — man, I got a rap. I got a reputation. So when he said that, I had to stop and think. He said, “Man, have you heard of Malcolm X?” “I don’t know Malcolm.” So he gave me the book, The Autobiography of Malcolm X, the first book I ever read. I didn’t read books. Not in that time. So as I’m reading Malcolm’s story, I said, “Damn! Sounds like my story!” Right? So now, for the first time, I got somebody interpreting for me what I was yearn- — longing and yearning for.

CT: Hmm.

KM: It was now being put into perspective for me, so I said, “Aha! That’s what it was.” I was looking for something, but I didn’t know what I was looking for! As Malcolm started talking about his hustling, and this, and this, and that, I said, “Damn. Now this makes sense.” So, as I’m reading Malcolm’s life, I’m sitting in the bed and I’m just, like, “Man, what is going on?” So I hear Elijah Muhammad [is] coming to town, — 

[SM laughs]

KM: ’Cause I was a hip-hop back in those days.

[SM laughs]

KM: College Station. WRUR! RIT, I think it’s still — oh, uh, University of Rochester!

CT: Yeah, WRUR! That’s it! [laughs]

KM: Right? I used to listen to it every Saturday night!

CT: Yeah.

KM: And the brothers that night were saying — they [were] advertising Elijah Muhammad coming to Rochester. I said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. I just read about this man. He’s coming to Rochester?” So I said, oh, I gotta go, I gotta go and hear him, ’cause I’m reading about him in the life of Malcolm X!

CT: Right.

KM: So, it — but it wasn’t Elijah; it was Farrakhan.

CT: Mmm.

KM: But I didn’t know. So that’s how I got my start, into the Nation. I heard Minister Farrakhan personally myself, and as I’m sitting there, like you’re sitting there, and I’m listening, like you’re listening, Minister Farrakhan was saying everything that I ever experienced in my life. It blew me away. It is as though me and him were having a conversation. But there were thousands of people in that church that night.

CT: Hmm.

KM: But I made up my mind, right then and there, I’m going, and I’m going to seek out who this man is, because I thought he was Elijah Muhammad. And that’s how I started my journey in the Nation.

CT: Hmm.

KM: What sustained me? I would just say my thirst for — for the knowledge, you know?

KM: Through my ups and downs.

CT: And how many years has it been, since?

KM: Since 1987!

CT: ’87.

KM: This month of December.

CT: Really?

KM: I came into the Nation. I don’t know if it was the first week or second week of December. But it was [tapping for emphasis] December.

SM: Wow.

KM: Damn, isn’t that something?

CT: [laughs] That is something.

SM: I came in October.

KM: [laughing] Ah!

[CT laughs]

KM: You’re an October Baby. [claps hands]

[All three laugh.]

CT: That’s when your birthday is?

SM: Yeah, [unclear].

KM: Yeah, Brother, so I would say in closing, man, that I came in, in December, so this would make 31 years.

CT: Wow.

KM: I’ve been striving to follow the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s teachings and the Honorable Louis Farrakhan. Ups and downs, ups and downs, failures and success.

CT: And in those —

KM: We’re still on the journey.

CT: And over those 31 years —

KM: 31 years.

CT: How’d you become, or — and what led you to truly, just, take up that calling and become the Rochester representative?

KM: Well, I didn’t call myself to that. I was asked to, uh, take on that responsibility. I mean, when you’re in the Nation, and you’re asked, you don’t say, “Well, I’m not qualified.” Nobody is qualified —

CT: Mmm.

KM: But you learn along the way, to become qualified. So we, we, we help our Nation wherever we can help our Nation, ’cause this is all we’ve got. This is it.

CT: Yeah.

KM: And I believe wholeheartedly in that, that this is all I got. I don’t have nothing outside of this. That kind of reality, I can’t relate to that, Brother. I can’t. I’ve been far removed from that reality for 31 years.

CT: Yeah.

KM: I know that side. For 18 years of my life, I knew that, and I wasn’t pleased with that, so why would I want to go back to that?

CT: Mhmm.

KM: That wouldn’t make no sense.

CT: Yeah. That would be stuck on stupid.

[KM and CT laugh]

CT: Right, yeah.

KM: So I would end it there, Brother.

CT: No, that’s perfect. Um, as you guys already have, I sent you the email. Um, so I —

KM: I want to hear his story —

CT: How can I say [best guess], I don’t think I —

[KM speaks; unclear in recording]

CT: I wanted to say, before we end, I would love to —

KM: Yeah!

CT: Hear your [SM’s] story, ’cause you said you were brought up [in the Nation].

SM: Yes, sir. You know, uh, just being brought up in the Nation, and I’m going to try to do it in 120 seconds, —

KM: Yeah, be quick.

SM: Because he [KM] has to move, but just, you know, coming up in the Nation, um, you have your ups and downs, and what really, really inspired me, Brother, to be honest, is when I see my father out there in the community by himself —

CT: Mmm.

SM: With the Final Call newspaper, but it looked like it was 10 people with him. And when you read the Scriptures and the Holy Quran, it talks about, you know, how you can double and double, and that’s what I was looking at. I was looking at my father, and I’m, like, “Man, here I am, living this unrighteous lifestyle, coming up in the Nation.” Right?

CT: Right.

SM: And I’m seeing my father, like, giving his all. And Allah, you know, started to reward me, and I said, “Man, I got to get my life together.” But, when you were talking about rituals, you know, when I was younger, I was just coming to my classes, not FOI class — I was not allowed to come in FOI class.

CT: Yeah.

SM: I was outside. But I would hear the brothers drilling. But me coming to the Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, Sundays — it was like a ritual. Right? But now, the stage I’m at now, the Messenger talks about, we don’t do rituals. We don’t do prayers or rituals. Now I’m at, “Okay, how can I extract what I’m learning?” Because, like, he was talking about Muhammad, a battle with self —

CT: Right.

SM: We’re — we’re — when you put on these uniforms, and you — thank you, Dad for saying that, because you’re battling with yourself. And a lot of people are not willing to do that. But the stage I’m at now, Brother? I’m really trying to extract the teachings, because I just got engaged.

CT: Mm.

SM: Now, if it’s God’s will if I get married and I have children, I want to tell my children the truth, right? So Honorable Elijah Muhammad is telling us the truth, and I would, you know, suggest that you get the books, if you don’t already have them — Message of the Black Man, Our Saviour Has Arrived, How to Eat to Live — because he’s going to give you the truth, and we need the truth, especially being young men.

CT: Mmm.

SM: Because we don’t want to make the same mistakes our parents made; we want to new mistakes, like Brother Kenneth was saying Wednesday. Why would you make the same mistakes, why would I make the same mistakes Pops made, out in the streets —

CT: Right.

SM: When it doesn’t make any sense? You would be just stupid!

CT: Yes — oh! [laughs] Right, yeah!

SM: Right? It would be just stupid! So now I’m learning that I got to make new mistakes, right? But with the guidance from the older brothers, and the guidance from the sisters, too, we can cover down and become a family, so you don’t make stupid mistakes —

CT: Right.

SM: ’Cause you’re going to make mistakes, but I thank Almighty God Allah, because I’m taking it serious, like, taking it serious. Because when you read Our Saviour Has Arrived, that’s what book I was coming through on Monday, —

CT: Yeah.

SM: Aw, Brother! Christmas is coming up, right? But he explains Christmas and we — that was the 120 seconds, bro!

[KM and CT laugh]

SM: You know? I’m just, I’m just, I’m just fired up, bro, because the teachings get you fired up.

CT: Yeah.

KM: And I just want to add to Brother Saeed’s story, you know, again, what the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan can do for our people.

SM: Yeah.

KM: He doesn’t — because my son doesn’t have a college degree. He only has a high school diploma. And when he graduated from high school, I didn’t force him to go to college. My only concern for him was him learning how to think.

CT: Yeah, what he was saying.

KM: Use what God has given you, and that’s what he is doing! He uses what God has given him, and he, he — to me, he’s very successful. He’s more successful than I was!

CT: Yeah.

KM: Right? ’Cause, hell, when I — I didn’t graduate from high school. I had to go back and get a GED. Then I went off and took some classes and got a degree in [coughs] — in the white man’s world, but [coughs] him? He’s using this! That’s the greatest degree to have, —

CT: Ah.

KM: Is when you can use your brainpower to envision for yourself, and then go to work and produce it. That’s what he’s doing! And I’m —

SM: That’s alright.

KM: I’m very thankful to Allah, that He’s guiding Brother Saeed the way He’s guiding him, because I can’t guide him like that. I can only say to him, from a father to a son, but he has to embrace that, and only Allah can do that for him. So, when he came into the Nation, you know, I never forced him into the Nation of Islam, see? We don’t force our children to believe. That’s their choice. But if you make the wrong choice, you’ree going to live with that, too!

SM: Yeah.

KM: And I’m not coming to your rescue. I’m not! Because I’ve already provided a way through my little example of what Islam can do for you. You see? So it’s on his shoulders, but again, if there was no system —

SM: Mhmm.

KM: By which he could tap into, then where would he be?

[CT exhales]

KM: And he’ll tell you that. He was lost.

SM: Empty.

KM: He was empty.

CT: Yeah.

KM: And he would start listening to Minister Farrakhan — 

SM: Mhmm.

KM: For himself — 

SM: Every day.

KM: Every day!

CT: Every day.

SM: Every day, man. Long hours.

KM: Man, he would plug into the minister, —

SM: Long hours.

KM: ’Cause he needed guidance!

SM: Mhmm.

KM: See, Brother, that is more important than anything in the world, is guidance, —

SM: Yeah.

KM: And right guidance. Without right guidance, you can have a million dollars, but what will happen to you? The Bible says a fool and his money shall soon depart. “Soon” may be a year. “Soon” may be five. “Soon” [laughs] may be 10! But soon will come!

CT: Right.

KM: Right? Unfortunately, without right guidance.

CT: Right.

KM: So the greatest commodity the Minister said that we need is right guidance. So you, Brother, are very brilliant —

SM: Yeah.

CT: I appreciate that.

KM: In your own right —

CT: Yeah.

KM: You know, and you are seeking understanding, and not being threatened by a different view of things. And I commend you for that, you know, and may Allah guide you, in whatever you are searching for, that you will discover it in your lifetime.

CT: Now that — that’s a great way to end. And I appreciate it.

KM: Yes, sir.

CT: That — may He truly guide me. That’s — jeez, that’s a great way to end. Um, I appreciate the time.

SM: Yes, sir.

KM: No, I appreciate it [best guess] —

CT: I appreciate the conversation.

KM: Yes, sir.

CT: Like I said, I told you it’s not really going to be an interview. I tell you, this is a conversation. I’m really … just curious.

KM: Yeah.

CT: Um, the last thing, if we can, just step outside really quickly, and I would love to just get headshots of you guys.

SM: Man, I would like to get a shot of both of y’all together, too —

CT: That’d be perfect!

SM: Since you did the interview. [laughs]

END OF RECORDING